Curse

Kakumei · Feb 12, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

I wanted to know if there was even a point to using Paragons anymore in groups in PvE. I think the replies I've gotten clearly show not. A bit of this and that really isn't good enough - it's an ineffective mish mash that is better served by using core classes in almost every area. A bit of warrior and a bit of monk? No thanks.

Why did you start the thread if you already had your answer, and had no intentions of actually listening to anything said?

As Ensign detailed above, spears are certainly not to be ignored--especially not while Aggressive Refrain is as ridiculous as it is.

Zinger314 · Feb 12, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Stop ignoring the ToF Tank build, people. It's still effective, even with the ToF nerf.

pingu666 · Feb 12, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Autoattack DPS, 16 Weapon Mastery, 60 AL, level 20 target:

Sword: 25.59
Axe: 26.66
Hammer: 29.35
Dagger: 25.83
Spear: 26.15
Scythe: 29.81

(Daggers at 13 Critical Strikes).

Swords, axes and spears have roughly equivilent raw DPS.

Paragons however get Aggressive Refrain, which they can maintain indefinitely at no cost for a +33% DPS boost. Other physicals need to use weaker attack speed boosts to achieve similar effect.

"Go for the Eyes!" is amazing. It's worth roughly 8 damage per physical at 0 spec, plus .8 for each level. Ballpark value with Aggressive Refrain up:

(10+<command>)*<physicals on team>*8/45

Value of "Go for the Eyes!" at 10 Command with 5 physicals on the team: ~18 DPS.

One copy of "Go for the Eyes!" on a physical-heavy team is about 2/3 of an autoattacking Axe Warrior.

Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52

Rough DPS of well built and played Dragon Slash Warrior: 55-60 DPS.

Spears being easy to kite is ridiculous. I've never seen anyone who actively kited spears. If you want to bring kiting into this, hi, we're comparing Paragons to *Warriors*. Melee is weakened by kiting an order of magnitude more than spear dodges.

Peace,
-CxE

:O didnt realise those 2 skills made paragon so potent.. i knew the autoattack was good but :O

average DPS of a wand is 13.32, a 15^50 wand is about 15...

aggressive refrain can be kept up continously, but its a pain in pve to stop between fights

, so there is a annoyance factor

lightblade · Feb 12, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Yes...because I'm still using my Paragon hero most of the time. They provide better spike than bow

Aerian_Skybane · Feb 12, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

My paragon dayjobs as a spear using basic Para, with anthem of flame, ToF, GftE, a few spear skills, watch out. Its still effective. Sad that they are still nerfing the para for HA, which I have never played nor intend to, but eh.

He moonlights as a melee Para along the lines of Zinger's axe build, but I use sword skills (which btw a Paragon wielding a sword is supremely awesome looking, but thats besides the point). It is hectic and fun, especially when I want a respite from the back lines. He is extremely effective and not only pulls aggro quite well, but I can maintain it and not die. I have outlast Wammos with the build, and everything burns around me. Quite fun.

Still, I don't support nerfing a build just for HA. The ToF nerf really hit home.

**cosyfiep** · Feb 12, 2007, 05:58 AM // 05:58

my paragon makes a wonderful mule.....maybe I will play her again when I am feeling like it, but for now, nope---have enough support charcters. (though I did change my rit/e to rit/p so I can cap all the elites for my heros!)

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 12, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I deleted my PvE Paragon. Before the nerf, I hadn't played it a lot, wasn't having much fun playing it, and hadn't figured out a good skill set for it (even after testing most of the builds posted here). So along comes the nerf, making it even more of a challenge to sort out. That was enough for me. I replaced it with a Dervish (now that the Derv. crowd has died down some - LOL), and have been having a blast with it.

Patrick Smit · Feb 12, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Autoattack DPS, 16 Weapon Mastery, 60 AL, level 20 target:

Sword: 25.59
Axe: 26.66
Hammer: 29.35
Dagger: 25.83
Spear: 26.15
Scythe: 29.81

(Daggers at 13 Critical Strikes).

Swords, axes and spears have roughly equivilent raw DPS.

Paragons however get Aggressive Refrain, which they can maintain indefinitely at no cost for a +33% DPS boost. Other physicals need to use weaker attack speed boosts to achieve similar effect.

"Go for the Eyes!" is amazing. It's worth roughly 8 damage per physical at 0 spec, plus .8 for each level. Ballpark value with Aggressive Refrain up:

(10+<command>)*<physicals on team>*8/45

Value of "Go for the Eyes!" at 10 Command with 5 physicals on the team: ~18 DPS.

One copy of "Go for the Eyes!" on a physical-heavy team is about 2/3 of an autoattacking Axe Warrior.

Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52

Rough DPS of well built and played Dragon Slash Warrior: 55-60 DPS.

Spears being easy to kite is ridiculous. I've never seen anyone who actively kited spears. If you want to bring kiting into this, hi, we're comparing Paragons to *Warriors*. Melee is weakened by kiting an order of magnitude more than spear dodges.

Peace,
-CxE

Amen to the above, paragons don't need to follow the target, they just chuck another spear ^^ (every 1.2 sec or so).

Complement with anthem of flame and focused anger (elite), you'll be firing of GFTY a lot. You can use barbed spear to spread degen that can be complemented with anthem of flame, giving everyone burning capacity when thye use an attack skill. Merciless spear is nice to finish with. with GFTY anthem of flame in your group its very interesting to take an mm and physicals in group.

Many people say Paragons are dead meat in parties. IMHO i think they are just not explored well by most players. There is probably much more u can squeeze out.

FoxBat · Feb 12, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I always take Morghan with me to any remotely challenging area, along with olias MM and zhed searing flames. GftE affects all the minions giving them a ton of damage, Zhed sets everything on fire and ToF protects the entire party plus makes sturdier minions. Seeing how well paragons synergize with two very popular PvE builds, it's really silly that they aren't finding their way into more PuGs.

Shadowfox1125 · Feb 12, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I still use my Paragon, in both PvE and PvP. Plus, if you don't want to use yours, just make him/her a mule.. Trust me, later you'll regret deleting your Para.

oinkers · Feb 12, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you played a Paragon from the beginning and didn't expect a nerf, you are clearly delusional.

No need to resort to name calling - I find this a lot on gwguru, especially with those saying Paragons are somehow still useful despite 3 repeated nerfs.

As for the various other builds posted, I dont think choosing GFTE/ToF and then bulk-filling the remaining 6 slots is convincing at all. Spear still has lower DPS than axe or sword.

You can't make a class out of only 2 useful skills.

Chunk · Feb 12, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Paragons are only good for secondary proffessions. I rest my case. No rebutles please.

FoxBat · Feb 12, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

New ele = SF + GG. Rest of their bar is gravy. NF's balance is just that bad.

Lagg · Feb 12, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Paragons suffer from the ailment known as Ritualitis.

They fulfill no specific role, being general support characters instead. Sure, they have buffs for themselves and their party, mostly alternatives to Monk enchantments. Now, these would be rather balanced if teams used them "as Anet intended". One Paragon (and/or Ritualist) per party acting as mid-line support.

Of course, people don't play this game "as Anet intended". Rather, they've found out that the only way that these professions can beat established builds is by making gimmicky builds consisting of nothing but these Monk alternatives. Ritualist Ritual Lord Doom-spike and Paragon holding with Incoming and Angelic Bond. And that's it. Anet nerfes these gimmicky builds and destroys both professions in the process. People already didn't want a Paragon or Ritualist as a general support character and now they definitely don't.

Why would you use a Paragon anyway? Rangers are better ranged attackers, Monks (and Earth Eles with Wards) are better buffers, Warriors (and Eles) have more AL.

Ah well, no biggie, people will simply forget about them when Chapter 4 comes out.

oinkers · Feb 12, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death

If Paragons are so useless then why has Paraway been making it to halls this special weekend?

~Death~

Read the original post. I was talking about a Paragon in PvE. There are (believe or not) actually players who dont actually care about halls, despite the whining that goes on around here sometimes.

Next time, stay on-topic.

oinkers · Feb 12, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

New ele = SF + GG. Rest of their bar is gravy. NF's balance is just that bad.

Well, yes. Balance since NF has come out is bad, and getting worse due to repeated mindless nerfs. But eles have more than just SF+GG, they play snares, earth tanks, spikers (well, not much these days), or a different style of nuker with MS.

Paragons? It's always GFTE/ToF/Anthem of Flame. Predictable as hell.

Age · Feb 12, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Maybe you should stop using paragons as monk and start using them differently.
Let's take the warrior for example, it has Watch Yourself, which is a great skill, it adds ~20 armor to all party members, but does a warrior put only watch yourself , shields up? No, cause that means hes limiting his effectiveness.

Try putting 3 attack skills on your bar, 3 support skills a healing and a res on your bar, you'd be amazed at how much more a paragon can do then just heal.

It was the Paragon that got Watchyourself nerfed in the first place as it help keep thier chants and shouts stay up longer.I just thank those who did this now in helping providing addition armour for castors.There is nothing wrong with the Paragon in PvE as they perfectly fine as I am useing one right now to cap the Avatars for heros.I did manage to get into a group at the Consulate Docks and the ones who died the most were The Dervs.They are just fine to play in PvE even with the nerfs

I can understand the nerfs that were needed when an 8 man GvG match can take on a guild and do it so fast.This is the reason that they got it in first place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO69dPgGmhMWhen you see this you will know why and btw they are the 2nd class to have highest armour rating The Warrior being the 1st.They aren't gimped in PvE .

FoxBat · Feb 12, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Crippling anthem = auto-cripple for all your physical attackers. Not that snare usually matters much in PvE. (How many water eles have you seriously seen there?)

ToF is an unremovable aegis that doesn't need chaining and works against elemental and armor-ignoring attacks. You could pull things slowly so that aggro actually sticks to some stoneflesh tank and get everyone to stand inside layers of wards, or you can turn your entire party into tanks and get on with the killing. You can even do both at the same time if you really want that much defense.

Paras aren't so great with the AoE damage, it's true, but I'm not sure what you'd expect there. Ensign already put out the numbers for single-target damage which they excel at, but if numbers and logic won't convince you, I'm not sure what will. If you're personally finding the results suck, there is no excuse not to bring one of their excellent IAS skills such as aggressive refrain, or spamming bleeding and deep wound better than a sword warrior. Bows don't even begin to compare for physical damage unless you're using barrage in dense areas.

Finally, they can make a monstrous healing machine and condition removal, IF you mass them, and trigger finale and chorus of restoration over and over. A solo motivation paragon is generally pretty bad though.

Cebe · Feb 12, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Is there any point using Paragons anymore in PvE? It's been 3 back-to-back nerfs and no buffs of any significant whatsoever. Incoming is now 1...3 seconds, and flashes it's about to finish the moment it starts - it's not even funny anymore.

Incoming IS just rediculous. I fail to see the justification for nerfing it AGAIN. Let's look at the Monk line, in particular, Protection Prayers. The skill Life Barrier...with enough in Protection it also reduces damage by half and that skill has not been touched and you can keep it on for as long as you want. So...what's with the "Incoming!" hate? Personally, instead of just having it as this joke they really might as well remove it from the game completely because, like Spiritual Pain, there's just no point having it on your skillbar now. My Paragon will have to find another elite to Play with....I'd best not say anything about that though because any ANet staff reading this might decide to nerf that one too...

Edge Martinez · Feb 12, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Read the original post. I was talking about a Paragon in PvE. There are (believe or not) actually players who dont actually care about halls, despite the whining that goes on around here sometimes.

PvP is actually pretty important to this discussion. Our PvE Paragons aren't getting nerfed because we own Rampaging Ntouka's and Corsair Lookouts too easy.

That said, I still enjoy the Paragon in PvE, but to get back to the original post- I doubt the enjoyment will last with much more nerfing.